Kelli Stump, immigration lawyer: ‘I’ve never seen so much disdain for the law, it’s truly alarming’

Kelli Stump says that not in her “wildest dreams” could she have imagined the changes she’s seen during her year as director of the American Immigration Lawyers Association. The attorney has been litigating cases in the field for 19 years and at the end of this month, will conclude her tenure at the helm of the organization, which was founded nearly 80 years ago and has 17,000 members. The most dramatic changes took place on January 20, the day Donald Trump returned to the White House with the promise that he would carry out the largest deportation campaign in history. Through executive orders and other measures, the Republican president has launched a war on due process. “These are definitely dark times,” Stump says in her office near downtown Oklahoma City, the capital of Oklahoma.

Question. Did you ever imagine that we’d be where we are at this point?

Answer. No, not even in 2017, when Donald Trump first became president. I’ve never seen so much disdain for following the rules and obeying the law. It’s truly alarming.

Question. Four months of this presidency have gone by. Which among the administration’s policies do you find most concerning?

Answer. The executive order that was used to invoke the Alien Enemies Act, which allows for deporting people from the country without the need for their case to be heard by a judge. It’s opened our eyes because people have still not been returned to the United States despite their return being ordered by the Supreme Court. They say that these people are criminals, and they might be, I don’t know, but they haven’t had a chance for a judge to determine that. For someone to pluck you off the street and remove you from the country without anyone having the opportunity to review the process — where are they taking us? Today it’s undocumented immigrants, but tomorrow it could be any citizen.

Question. What do you think about the fact that so many Americans believe that undocumented individuals do not have any rights?

Answer. I would love to send them back to school! I know the system is complex, but these are our laws. Even though people think they are stupid laws, this is our constitutional order until Congress changes it. Do we need to change some laws? Great, but that is not the president’s job. That’s Congress’ area. We should also review the separation of powers and why that separation exists, so that no power is above any of the others.

Question. Immigration judges don’t belong to the judicial branch, but rather the executive. How are they behaving in this new presidency. Have you seen a change in their rulings?

Answer. There are more than 350 judges and in some, I have seen a change. They are doing what their bosses, the executive branch, is asking of them. Although they do have to obey their bosses, it’s important to remember that judges are also lawyers. Lawyers who occupy those positions take an oath to protect and defend the Constitution.

Question. Are we seeing a war against due process?

Answer. Absolutely. It’s completely unprecedented. The government argues that due process isn’t violated in immigration courts, despite the fact that the Constitution says you have the right to be heard in a court. These judges say that they can’t take on constitutional matters and that they should be brought to the appropriate courts. But that takes time and right now, the administration can detain someone and remove them from the country before they have the opportunity to be heard by a constitutional judge. We’re witnessing something historic, and the government knows perfectly well what it’s doing.

Question. During the last few weeks, they’ve been arresting people in immigration courts. Is that common?

Answer. I have seen people detained in the courts. It can be somewhat legal. What is less common is an order that came out in May from the immigration appeals board. It says that if you have been released by ICE — the recent arrivals who are detained at the border and set free (catch and release) — now, your custody is modified. The order holds that judges have no jurisdiction to set bail, that only ICE can do that. We are beginning to see ICE detain these individuals again with no right to bail. That’s new. It started two weeks ago.

Question. Who are the people who are being detained?

Answer. They’re people who arrived recently. They came to the country in the last two years. We are seeing their cases being thrown out and procedures being initiated to deport them quickly. Many of those who are being submitted to this process began their immigration process through the CBP One application, which was used to reduce irregular immigration by offering a chance to do it legally.

Question. Sounds like they were tricked…

Answer. Exactly. I think that these cases are legally the strongest, under an argument called misplaced confidence. They were told that it was the correct way to begin a process and that was suddenly changed.

Question. And what is going to happen?

Answer. The only exception to the rapid deportation proceedings is if you can argue what is called credible fear, that you are at risk if you are returned to your country of origin. If you aren’t, an immigration judge has seven days to review the case. I think that those people are going to be detained. They’re being denied bail, due to which they’re being sent to detention centers. Being in prison for an undefined amount of time is not fun. I think many people give up and prefer to return to their countries.

Question. And what happens to the people who have been waiting longer for their asylum cases to be processed? Can they avoid going to court to prevent being detained?

Answer. They have to go to the courts. If they fail to do so, it automatically becomes a deportation order. And once you have that hanging over you, you are subject to mandatory detention.

Question. Where else are they detaining people?

Answer. We have heard that ICE is showing up at U.S. Citizenship and Immigration Services offices to arrest individuals. On some occasions, someone has a deportation order against them and immigration calls them for a I-130 interview. Not everyone gets that call. That has aroused our attention. If someone receives a call for an I-130 interview and has one of those orders pending, they should be on high alert. They should be very careful, because it’s probable that ICE will be there to take them away. That, however, has always been the case. With Bush, Obama, Trump 1.0…

Question. What is the current state of asylum, which was once one of the pillars of the country?

Answer. I recently told a colleague that I would like for the United Nations to take action and sanction us. We guaranteed the right to protect people. It was a sacred process for defending the persecuted, like during World War II. Now, we simply ignore it. We are returning people to a certain death just because we can.

Question. With everything that is happening, are you still able to give hope to people?

Answer. Oh yes. Totally. This is the moment to hire a lawyer. These are very complex cases and without representation, the road is hard. Until Congress changes things, everyone has to have the opportunity to put up a fight. It may happen from prison, but it can be fought. At least in my case, I’m going to fight, because what is happening is wrong. If anyone is afraid of being persecuted in their country, I still believe that our laws will protect them.

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