David Nirenberg, historian: ‘If I had to invest in stocks of anything, it would be in xenophobia. It will only rise’

Medieval historian David Nirenberg, 60, is tired. And, at the same time, strangely elated. He has just crossed the pond and landed in Madrid, where he demonstrates his almost perfect Spanish. “I don’t speak that well,” he says modestly, before his conversation with Mercedes García-Arenal, an Arabist, at the Festival of Ideas in the Spanish capital. The topic of the talk could not be more provocative: Communities of Violence. Blood and Milk. And the reflections of Nirenberg — known for his research on the relationship between Christians, Jews and Muslims — could not be more pertinent. “The idea of a festival about ideas is magnificent, and even more so in these times, when ideas are so difficult to discuss,” says Nirenberg, the author of books such as Communities of Violence and Neighboring Faiths: Christianity, Islam and Judaism in the Middle Ages and Today.

Question. You took part in a festival that exalts critical thinking. Do you think that this way of reasoning is in good shape today?

Answer. It is clear that we are in a period in which critical thinking faces several challenges. One is the extreme politicization of all expression. Today, any form of skepticism or doubt is penalized in the public arena, and that is a big problem. Socrates said that critical thinking should be aware of its own limitations, but today we are asked to be absolutely sure of things that no one can be sure of.

Q. Do new technologies create an urgency that is incompatible with reflection?

A. Absolutely. The media revolution is part of the problem: the space for quiet exploration, for difficult or complex ideas, has disappeared. Everything becomes public instantly, and the moment something becomes public, it becomes political. So the space for confronting complex ideas has disappeared.

Q. One of the fields of study you have researched the most is the relationship between Judaism, Islam and Christianity. How do you see the current situation in the Middle East?

A. Well, it’s related to what we were talking about. For someone like me, who works with a broad historical perspective, it’s imperative to make sure that what happens doesn’t destroy the whole historical depth. A historian must not fall into the kind of certainties or opinions that politics (or the press, sorry) demands. When I think about what’s happening in the Middle East today, I can’t ignore the historical perspective, how Christians or Muslims have thought about Jerusalem over the centuries. That’s why I think it’s becoming more difficult to be a historian: everyone demands that we have certainties about the present, but that’s precisely what we must stay away from.

Q. Would the conflict in the Middle East itself be experienced differently without this need to judge the present? Would a more historical perspective help?

A. Let’s say that one becomes a historian because one believes that history can help people in the present. But it is only useful if it is not reduced by immediate political passions. A historical perspective would make us see the conflict differently, but Thucydides pointed out that in wars, words lose their meaning.

Q. How then can history be articulated with the present?

A. That is the dilemma: we must use history to question what exists, not to reinforce our certainties.

Q. The talk you are taking part in is about xenophobia and hatred, which seem to be doing very well.

A. (Laughs). It’s a very strong industry.

Q. Of course, if you had to invest in stocks like in the stock market it would be…

A. In xenophobia, without a doubt. It continues to grow and will only get worse.

Q. From a historical perspective, how do you see this rise? In Europe, we are seeing xenophobic movements in parties far removed from the extreme right; for example, in Germany and in some Nordic countries…

A. We are clearly in a period of migratory movements. Migrations are meeting points and these meeting points are a point of conflict. There is no doubt that as migration becomes more common, coupled with the fact that many European countries have demographic problems, one can think that this is going to be an area of conflict and debate. I am particularly interested in how religious discourses (Jewish, Christian and Muslim) contain both anti-racist and racist elements. For example, Christian nationalism in the United States. If you look, again, from a historical perspective, you can see how these conflicts are periodically repeated in a sort of Ouroboros: the snake that eats its own tail.

Q. Will this situation be resolved, or will it become more entrenched? Can we evolve to reach a meeting point?

A. Well, historians can be prophets when it comes to trying to prevent the future we most fear, and steer in the direction we do want to head towards. But often we have no idea how the world will evolve. I finished writing my book on anti-Judaism in 2013, and I said then that I feared that Israel, as an idea, was moving away from people. And I could have said the same about Islam.

Q. You are working on a history of racial thought in Judaism, Christianity, and Islam.

A. In Europe, 20 years ago, when I talked about race, people thought it was a very American thing. Before, it was seen as an American problem, and it is clear that slavery based on skin color is an unavoidable issue in the United States. But today it is a concept that has spread, and many countries have understood that it makes sense to talk about race and the problems that have arisen throughout history. Spain is one of them. We are more aware of the dangers that come with replicating racism.

Q. You wrote your latest book, Uncountable: A Philosophical History of Number and Humanity from Antiquity to the Present, with your father, Ricardo, who is a mathematician. What is it like to work with a parent?

A. It’s great, and also difficult. He brought a huge mathematical, philosophical and literary knowledge. It led to a book about mathematics as a way of understanding the world that would not have been possible either for him alone, or for me if I had worked by myself. If I have to give advice, it would be to have a good father, have a good son... and have a good psychoanalyst (laughs).

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