María Corina Machado: ‘Maduro can decide, but he will go, with or without a negotiation’

Just a few hours have passed since the Norwegian Nobel Committee informed María Corina Machado (Caracas, 58) that she had been awarded the Nobel Peace Prize, an honor that the opposition leader never imagined she would receive. Speaking through a screen — the only way to see her since she decided to go into hiding more than a year ago — Machado doesn’t hide how overwhelmed she feels. Amid dozens of phone calls, she speaks with EL PAÍS about the implications of the award. Her trembling voice at the start of the interview reveals a whirlwind of emotions.

At the time of the interview (9 p.m. in Spain, 3 p.m. in Venezuela), the Spanish government had still not congratulated her, and former vice president Pablo Iglesias had said that the Nobel Prize might as well have been given to Hitler: “Depending on who it comes from, the attacks can be the greatest compliments,” Machado says, referring to Iglesias’s remarks. As for the government’s silence, she is cautious: “Only a few hours have passed, and I don’t want to speculate because I myself haven’t even been able to answer the phone or speak to my children. But when it comes to the situation in Venezuela, there is no longer any room for silence or indifference between crime and justice. No one wants to be in the middle. And in the end, I know where the Spanish people stand.”

Question. What significance does this award have at a time when Venezuela is going through one of its most critical points in history?

Answer. I have no doubt that this will be a fundamental boost for us Venezuelans. We have never been so close to freedom as we are at this moment. We have tried everything within our Constitution to preserve our liberties and then restore democracy after the regime destroyed all institutions and rights. We have protested, and we have been run over, attacked, and assaulted; we have participated in elections, defeated the regime, and they stole the election. We have been involved in multiple negotiation processes, and the regime has broken its word in every one. So, we are at a point where we understand that only the coordination of internal and external forces against a criminal structure will allow Venezuela to move forward in the democratic transition. And we are on the threshold of that.

Q. What are you feeling?

A. I can’t sum it up in one word — it’s a tremendous responsibility. It’s a commitment not only to Venezuela, but to the entire world. I’m overwhelmed. I am just one person in a movement of millions, and I feel it’s somewhat unfair to have this focused on a single figure when we have political prisoners, nine million exiles, thousands of people killed, and more than 20,000 extrajudicial executions since Chávez came to power. This is a country that has given even its very life for freedom. I take it as a recognition of the Venezuelan people at the most important moment in our republican history.

Q. In recent days, the name of U.S. President Donald Trump was frequently mentioned on the list of possible prize winners. You were one of the first people he publicly thanked. Have you spoken with him?

A. Yes, we spoke today.

Q. What was that conversation like?

A. It was a private conversation, and I’d prefer to leave it at that, but what I can say is that Venezuelans are deeply grateful to President Trump. He has firmly and correctly understood the nature of the regime we are facing. This is not a conventional dictatorship — it is a tyranny that has turned into a narco-terrorist system. The goal is to dismantle a criminal structure. It’s about saving lives. And, of course, from our perspective, it’s about upholding popular sovereignty. We won an election under perverse, extreme rules that probably wouldn’t have been accepted in Spain or in most democratic countries around the world. And even so, we went, and we won by a landslide. From that comes our greatest strength and legitimacy.

Q. What is your position regarding the U.S. attacks and military maneuvers off the Venezuelan coast? Do you fear they could jeopardize a peaceful solution in Venezuela?

A. The only way for a criminal structure to finally yield and accept that it must go is when you cut off its sources of funding. This is a regime that has financed itself through drug trafficking, gold smuggling, arms trading, human trafficking, the black market, and oil. When those flows start to dry up, the structures begin to crack. That is what is happening in Venezuela today, and that is what we need to understand. All those people who said there was no need to build a credible threat, that force shouldn’t be put on the table — well, just look at what’s happening. This confirms what we’ve been saying for years: freedom must be fought for, and facing a tyranny of this kind requires moral, spiritual, and physical strength. We are facing a real possibility that Venezuela will truly be freed and move toward an orderly transition, because 90% of the population wants the same thing. Don’t tell us this could become another Libya, Afghanistan, or Iraq — this has nothing to do with that.

Q. And how far do you think that pressure can go?

A. That will depend on Maduro. Maduro has the opportunity to achieve peace. I say to him: “Maduro, leave now for the sake of Venezuela’s peace.”

Q. What do you expect from him and from Chavismo?

A. We are seeing what was to be expected. They betray each other, deceive each other, and expose one another. With each passing day, more and more members of that circle realize that this is over and that, for their own good, they must accept the terms of a transition. The person responsible for everything that is happening has a name — Nicolás Maduro. And, of course, the cartel — the cartel that has illegitimately taken control of all the institutions of my country.

Q. What are the terms of that transition? How do you envision it?

A. It has many layers. The most important one is the people — they are at the center of everything we’ve done; we’ve gotten here because of them. Now they tell us there can’t be an orderly transition because there will be disruptive groups? It’s going to be an absolutely orderly transition, and we are going to bring this country to stability thanks to the people, because we have earned it through sheer determination. It’s a complex, extremely complex process. These people destroyed everything. Today, no one can tell you the size of Venezuela’s debt, how much our reserves are, how much is exported, or how much is produced. No one. What we can say is that this is the greatest plundering in the history of humanity.

Q. How viable do you think a negotiation is? What gestures would you be willing to make if Chavismo agreed to negotiate?

A. From the day we swept the election, we said we were willing to enter into a negotiation that would allow justice to exist in Venezuela. Never vengeance or retaliation, because that’s not who we are. Besides, the grassroots of what Chavismo once was are today the most passionate and fervent promoters of change in Venezuela, because they know the monster, because they don’t want that for their children; because public employees, the military, and the police feel like — and are — political prisoners. No one has to be friends with me or with Edmundo [González]. The great longing is for our children to come home. I know that Spain loves them and has welcomed them with open arms, but I’ll tell you now that I want them all back — and quickly.

Q. And what would be the red lines of a negotiation with the Chavismo leadership?

A. I’m not going to get into those details, but I know Venezuelans have confidence that we will carry out a process that will put the people at the center, and that will bring truth and justice. But actions must be taken to facilitate this process. We will take them and present them with absolute rigor and transparency — transparency to the nation. There is no one more interested than I am in seeing this process move forward quickly, in an orderly way, and with the least possible cost. Maduro decides whether to take it or leave it, but he will go, with or without a negotiation.

Q. You’ve been in hiding for more than a year. How do you manage the distance? How does that isolation affect you when a large part of your movement is in prison? And above all, how do you maintain trust?

A. I admit that it has been very difficult, and if you had asked me this question a year ago, I would have said, “You’re crazy — I don’t even want a week in hiding. There’s nothing left.” And yet, look at how we’ve managed to reinvent and innovate. The formidable structure we built — the comanditos, with more than a million volunteers —, the regime didn’t see it coming. They thought they could dismantle it with clubs, bullets, force, and repression. And yes, the cost has been brutal: there are 853 prisoners, thousands in hiding, and millions in exile. But even though we had to protect ourselves, we quickly came back with new forms of organization — careful, discreet, protecting one another — but very effective and powerful. If there’s one thing Venezuelan society has today, it’s a level of organization like few others, despite having had to build it in secrecy.

Q. How do you think Latin American powers like Brazil, Mexico, or Colombia would react to a hypothetical U.S. military incursion in Venezuela? Or do you not see that scenario as viable?

A. The only invasion in Venezuela is the one we’ve had from guerrillas, from cartels, from Cuban, Russian, and Iranian agents, Hezbollah, Hamas, and other organizations. And all the countries of Latin America, and all the presidents of Latin America, know what is happening in Venezuela, and there is no longer any excuse. So today we are facing a country occupied by criminal forces, and each of these governments — and all of them in general — must make a decision: either they stand with the people of Venezuela, or they stand with a narco-terrorist cartel.

Q. So you rule out a U.S. military incursion, then?

A. I will not comment on an operation of that nature, which seeks to defend the national security of any other country. We are defending Venezuela’s sovereignty and freedom, and we have lost thousands and thousands of human lives in that struggle. And today’s recognition is a recognition of each one of them — of the political prisoners, of their families, of human rights defenders, of Venezuelans around the world — but above all of our children, our young people, and the generations that will be born in a free Venezuela.