Ukrainian prime minister: ‘When Putin understands he will be punished, then he will stop this war’

Denys Shmyhal, the prime minister of Ukraine, has arrived at the U.N.’s Fourth International Conference on Financing for Development, held in Seville, with a firm purpose: to secure two strong commitments from his partners. The first is to confiscate frozen Russian assets and allocate them to the reconstruction of his country. The second is to impose new sanctions on Russia and its allies.

“That will reduce the space for manipulation, lies, and the development of their economy. In the end, they will come to the negotiating table to demand peace,” Shmyhal explained in an interview with EL PAÍS this Sunday, the same day Ukraine suffered one of the largest drone attacks since the full-scale invasion began more than three years ago.

The Russians have intensified and refined these bombings using Iranian-made drones, and Kyiv is calling for assistance to improve its air defenses and repel them. “We are tired, but not exhausted,” the Ukrainian leader warns.

Question. How is the morale on the front lines and among the citizens, especially those living near the fighting, where Russian attacks have intensified?

Answer. The situation in Ukraine remains difficult. We are tired, which is natural after such a long war, but we are not exhausted, which is very important. The front line is now more or less stabilized. They keep pressing. They have quite crazy political goals, such as reaching the geographical borders of other regions of Ukraine (Zaporizhia, Dnipro, Kharkiv, Sumi, perhaps Chernihiv) to increase their bargaining power and bring us capitulation proposals, which are absolutely unacceptable. We understand that we have the support of our partners, the support of the EU, and we will continue to fight.

Q. What help do you most need now from your European partners?

A. Our number one priority is air defense: Patriots, Hawks, SAMP-T. More than offensive weapons, we need defensive weapons to defend our skies, because the Russians have dramatically increased the production of Iranian-made drones and missiles. Every night they use between 300 and 500 drones and missiles. We need cooperation in the production of drones, which play a crucial role on the battlefield and allow us not only to deter but also to put pressure on the Russians from our side. But we are also asking our partners to implement sanctions that put pressure on Russia from the other side. There must be pressure from both directions: on the front lines and on the Russian economy through sanctions. That will reduce the space for manipulation, lies, and the development of their economy. In the end, they will come to the negotiating table to demand peace. That is our strategy.

Q. Should the EU be more aggressive in imposing sanctions on Russia?

A. It should clearly be more and more so, not just the EU, but also the U.S. We expect all partners to dramatically increase the pressure of sanctions on the banking sector, the SWIFT [interbank communication] system, the nuclear sector, and on Russia’s allies, which allow them to circumvent sanctions. That’s why we’re calling for secondary sanctions. And those secondary sanctions, that 500% tariff on Russian energy imports, would put enormous pressure on their market and on their allies. It would be a good package: the 18th European Union package [not yet ratified by the European Council]. And those proposals and the bill now before the U.S. Congress are very good sanctions proposals.

Q. Does Ukraine’s proposal for countries to allocate it confiscated Russian assets fit with this idea?

A. Freezing Russian assets around the world at the beginning of the war wasn’t a legal decision, but it was a very important and correct political decision. Now we’re asking the partners: are you ready to return that money to Russia? No one is willing. Which is another political and legal step: if no one wants to return that money to Russia, then how should it be used? The windfall from those Russian assets is being sent to Ukraine as loans through the Recovery Mechanism, and we welcome that. But that’s not enough to support and rebuild Ukraine. So we need to find a solution to confiscate all those assets.

Q. Some countries question the legality of that request.

A. Large-scale aggression is absolutely illegal within the security framework of the modern world. The freezing of Russian assets was not legal. So, similarly, there could be a second political decision to confiscate those assets. We continue to work on this, and during this conference I will repeat our request to confiscate all Russian assets, for two reasons. First: we need this source for the reconstruction of Ukraine. And second: the aggressor must pay financially for its unprovoked aggression and reimburse all losses and damages.

Q. Do you think the commitment to Ukraine at the last NATO summit was sufficient to address all the security challenges?

A. This summit was a success for Ukraine. All partners recognized that Ukraine’s accession to NATO is irreversible. The question of when and how is secondary.

Q. Are you satisfied with the commitment made by NATO members to allocate 5% of their budget to defense?

A. When someone asks me how much should be spent, I answer: “It’s their sovereign decision.” But they must bear in mind that, in the 21st century, on the European continent, a large-scale war is possible. Every country and every NATO ally must spend enough on defense. I hope that innovative solutions can be found, decisions that combine innovation, research, and modern defense needs. I trust that a political compromise can be reached in those countries where there is still debate.

Q. You met with Spanish Prime Minister Pedro Sánchez. What is Ukraine asking of Spain?

A. Spain is one of Ukraine’s greatest supporters in all areas, especially defense. We have a commitment from its government to allocate €1 billion this year, in accordance with our security agreement between Spain and Ukraine. We also have humanitarian and energy support in all areas.

Q. Last week, European Council President António Costa mentioned an acceleration in the process of Ukraine’s EU accession. How do you view Hungary’s opposition, which could block the unanimous approval needed from all 27 member states?

A. We are doing everything we can to become full members of the EU. We are doing our part. Now the political decision is on the side of the European Commission and the EU, and it is an internal discussion between the member states. If 26 are ready to support Ukraine, they will find a way to convince the 27th member, as they have done before.

Q. On concerns such as corruption and minority rights raised by the European Council, how is Ukraine addressing these issues?

A. On corruption, the latest EU report shows remarkable progress in anti-corruption reforms. The fight against corruption in Ukraine has been assessed at the highest level. The OECD secretary-general was in Ukraine and presented a report on anti-corruption reforms, showing that daily corruption in Ukraine has dropped from 70% seven years ago to 15% this year. We have the largest and best anti-corruption infrastructure. Regarding national minorities, we asked the EU what the best minority legislation was, they told us Romania had the most innovative, we took that legislation, copied it, and implemented it in Ukraine. So now we have the most advanced legislation for national minorities, and our communities are fully satisfied. All claims about restrictions or problems with minorities in Ukraine are manipulations.

Q. The U.S. managed to broker a ceasefire between Iran and Israel. Why hasn’t this been possible in Ukraine?

A. Imagine you are in this room with a criminal who has no other purpose but to kill you. He begins to do so. You defend yourself and try to resist, but if you stop, he will finish the job and kill you. Then the war will be over: you will be dead, and he will have achieved his goal. Everyone else is watching from the doors, asking: “When will they stop?” They say: “Please stop, we are tired of watching you fight.” Is there a solution? Yes. If partners give you a knife or a weapon, you can stop him. Or he will be afraid you will kill him and will flee. Another solution is that partners impose strong sanctions, arrest him, and imprison him. The question is: when will Putin want to stop this war? Because if we stop, we will die. That is absolutely clear. If we fight with better weapons, the odds are equalized. When Putin understands he will be punished, that the Russian economy will suffer more, and that Ukraine can inflict more casualties, then he will stop this war.

Q. So, some U.S.-backed proposals, like a ceasefire without the withdrawal of Russian troops, are unacceptable?

A. We accept the U.S. proposal for an immediate and comprehensive ceasefire along the entire front as a first step, before further negotiations to halt this war diplomatically, but Russia hasn’t stopped. What we don’t accept are 30-day ceasefires, three-day ceasefires, or Easter ceasefires.

Q. Spain is the fourth country hosting the largest number of Ukrainian refugees. There are reports that when the war ends, only 30% of those people will return to Ukraine. Is it even possible to imagine reconstruction with so many people outside the country?

A. We hope that many of our people will return home. When we ask them under what conditions they would return, they say security comes first, and jobs second. Security will come when the war ends. Jobs will be there if we begin the projects to rebuild Ukraine and restore homes. As time has passed and the war has dragged on, the percentage of refugees who clearly stated they wanted to return to Ukraine has decreased, but we still hope that between 70% and 80% of Ukrainians will return home and support the economy during the reconstruction process, with jobs and security.

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