Gustavo Petro: ‘There will be a rebellion if the United States does not rethink its policy toward Latin America’

Gustavo Petro is running out of time. On August 7 he will cease to be Colombia’s president. Over four years, many of his promises have fallen by the wayside — sometimes because of his own missteps, other times because of the resistance and fears of a country where the left had not governed in decades. Now the toll of holding power has come crashing down on him. At times, he appears irritable and in a bad mood, but on Saturday morning, a smiling Petro, dressed in an impeccable blue suit, walked into Pavilion 8 of the Fira de Barcelona accompanied by his presidential entourage. Petro was taking part in the Fourth Meeting in Defense of Democracy alongside the presidents of Spain, Brazil, and Mexico — a progressive lineup in which he feels at ease.

In the interview with EL PAÍS, the Colombian president, who turned 66 on Sunday, defends multilateralism and the fight against climate change, while repeatedly taking aim at the electoral system, even raising doubts about whether he will recognize the election results if he believes there are irregularities. His hopes rest on his candidate, Iván Cepeda, currently the frontrunner in the polls, becoming the next person to occupy his office. He concedes that failing to secure that outcome would be a personal blow.

Question. The far right has been gaining ground worldwide. Have progressive governments failed?

Answer. It advanced, but now it has stopped. The setback is evident in public opinion in the United States and in the electoral defeat of Viktor Orbán in Hungary. And also in Latin America. The progressive victory is in Mexico, Brazil, and Colombia, which together represent the majority of the Latin American population. This idea of ​​the far right taking power is not realistic.

Q. But you will acknowledge that there is greater instability. Trump’s new security doctrine endorses intervention abroad, and the United States arrested Nicolás Maduro in Venezuela. Aren’t you afraid that this will be repeated?

A. These events you describe are true. And they are the manifestation of a major conflict. But the most serious issue is the climate crisis. While missiles are being launched, climate change is advancing. Because of our consumption of oil and coal, we are facing the extinction of life, including human life.

Q. Indeed, one of the biggest enemies of the fight against climate change is Donald Trump. What is your relationship with him? Could he threaten Colombia militarily again?

A. The relationship is good. I have no intention of attacking the United States, nor does it seem that Trump has any intention of upsetting Colombia. I’ve spoken with him twice recently. Meeting him shattered certain false narratives about Colombia and about me. He met a different person. I also had prejudices. But I didn’t go to kneel or beg [Washington]; rather, there was a personal conversation between different forces who recognize each other as equals.

Q. How would you define Trump?

A. An Aryan gentleman, from a family of immigrants who came to the United States and prospered.

Q. And don’t you think that, with what has happened in Venezuela and Cuba, we are living under neocolonialism? Isn’t freedom threatened?

A. There is a threat, and there are presidents who govern under pressure. When they put me on the OFAC list [the Clinton List, on which the U.S. Treasury includes people allegedly suspected of drug trafficking or money laundering], I understood that this instrument for fighting drug trafficking has become a political tool. It’s used as a mechanism of extortion against those of us who express different political views. If you don’t do this, you don’t get off the list, and it becomes difficult to eat, have a bank account, travel, and so on. They persecute you and threaten to take you to the United States, like they did to Maduro. It’s a system like the one the King of Spain had centuries ago. And what was the Latin American response? Rebellion. That will happen now if the U.S. government isn’t able to rethink its relationship with Latin America. Caracas is the first Latin American city to be bombed in its history; not even Panama was. This has created a wound that the current rulers fearfully accept... and they kneel before it. The image of [Venezuelan opposition leader María] Corina [Machado, offering her Nobel Peace Prize to Trump] is terrible.

Q. And will the United States remove you from the Clinton List?

A. I have no idea. I’m preparing to live outside the capitalist system, as I was used to doing before.

Q. Shouldn’t the Venezuelan government call elections as soon as possible?

A. No. Our mistake was thinking that the solution was the elections [specifically the July 28, 2024 election that was won by Machado’s candidate Edmundo González]. I discussed it with Maduro. We needed two tracks: free elections and, at the same time, the lifting of sanctions. The United States didn’t lift them, and Maduro prevented some opposition members from participating [he disqualified Machado]. In short, there were no free elections. That’s why I didn’t recognize them, nor did Brazil. In a conversation, I told Maduro: “Brother, take the risk. If you lose, the opposition will take over.”

Q. And he didn’t.

A. In the Colombian left, we know what it means to be in opposition, because for 50 years it was done under fire, under persecution, with mass killings. More than 5,000 members of the Patriotic Union [a left-wing party] were murdered. Under extremely harsh conditions, we won, and we won peacefully. It is impossible to imagine any other way out in Venezuela.

Q. How long will that transition take?

A. One or two years to build mutual trust. That will allow for free elections, elections without sanctions. There is a gradual uprising underway. We can move in the right direction if Delcy Rodríguez calls for a broad national dialogue. She is caught between two or three worlds: her principles, shaped under [former president Hogo] Chávez; submitting to a country that has launched missiles at her territory; and opening a scenario that could mean she leaves power.

Q. In Colombia, you have criticized the electoral authority and cast doubt on the vote count. Aren’t you afraid that this could delegitimize the democratic process and undermine the credibility of the result if there are problems?

A. There shouldn’t be any problems. And the fact that there’s a possibility of problems proves me right. There has always been fraud in Colombia. I’m not making up the word. Fraud in the sense that only the same people governed.

Q. But will you acknowledge the result, whatever it may be?

A. Yes, but not fraud.

Q. And in the hypothetical case of fraud, what would you do?

A. The Colombian justice system, in its highest court, the Plenary Chamber of the Council of State, ordered a change in the firm that conducts the vote count. The registrars, who are not appointed by the government, sign the contract, which is worth billions of pesos. Colombian elections are a business. And in business, presidential candidates can come in and say: I’ll put up the money. Where does the money come from? It doesn’t matter. That’s the danger I’ve denounced. A judge asked me not to speak about this anymore, but I’m speaking out because it’s the reality.

Q. But haven’t you failed in the fight against corruption? Some of your closest collaborators are involved in serious cases, including one of your sons.

A. In the criticism the Colombian press makes of the government, there are accurate points and enormous lies that the justice system pursues, because it is mostly in the hands of the opposition. This is what they call lawfare. The justice system is where injustices are found. In some cases, it is right, as in the UNGRD case [the diversion of funds to pay bribes to members of Congress]. I appointed the person responsible and fired him. It is my responsibility. The press says it is the biggest theft in the history of Colombia. And that is a lie. They do it to imply that the government is corrupt as a whole.

Q. But do you trust the Colombian justice system or not?

A. It has won very courageous battles in the past, but the justice system is undergoing a rightward shift; it’s what’s called the Toga Cartel [members of the Supreme Court who committed bribery crimes]. When there was a government that wanted to enforce the Constitution and build a social state governed by the rule of law, the entire justice system opposed it.

Q. You promised total peace, but it has been a failure. What happened?

A. It is a failure insofar as the current violence is very regional, not national, centered in places where cocaine is produced or transported.

Q. What advice would you give to your successor?

A. Don’t be fooled by people who call themselves centrists but are more right-wing than [former president] Álvaro Uribe. Also, to try for a new agreement with Uribe. I sought one, and it failed because the Uribista mentality is to impose their own agenda, forgetting the one that won through the people’s vote. That arrogance prevented fundamental agreements that I proposed. Uribe dedicated himself to irrational opposition, damaging many important reforms for the people, such as those related to healthcare, pensions, and labor. He has never understood that Colombia’s progress, even within capitalism, depends on productivity and knowledge, not on the overexploitation of its people.

Q. You have four months left in office. Looking back, what was your biggest mistake?

A. Having appointed Ocampo [José Antonio, his first minister of finance], Gaviria[(Alejandro, of education] and Cecilia [López, of agriculture], whom I considered liberals but who ended up betraying the program the people voted for.

Q. Are the elections a contest between you and Uribe? Your candidate, Iván Cepeda, and Uribe’s, Paloma Valencia, are leading in the polls.

A. Paloma is Uribe’s candidate, and she loyally expresses this. She was the main opponent of the government’s social reforms. She blocked, for example, the pension reform with her friends on the Constitutional Court.

Q. If Cepeda loses, would it be a defeat for you?

A. Undoubtedly.

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