Nobel Peace Prize winner Oleksandra Matviichuk: ‘I am afraid that the world will get used to the war in Ukraine as it did with the war in Syria’

Oleksandra Matviichuk has a special dress tucked away in the back of her closet, a very pretty one, reserved for one day in a hypothetical future when she will finally see the man she has been trying to bring to justice for a decade — Russian President Vladimir Putin — sitting in front of an international court. She often says that she will wear red lipstick, as she is wearing this Saturday in September. The 40-year-old Ukrainian began her battle against one of the most powerful men in the world in 2014, after Russia’s annexation of Crimea, but her work intensified in 2022, when Moscow invaded Ukraine. In 2022, her efforts were rewarded with the Nobel Peace Prize, which she won together with imprisoned Belarusian human rights activist Ales Bialiatski and the Russian human rights organization Memorial.

Matviichuk heads the Center for Civil Liberties, which has already documented more than 78,000 war crimes in an attempt to leave a record for posterity, a historical memory that — in the unlikely event that Putin is tried — will help build a strong case against him. “It is a huge amount, but it is only the tip of the iceberg. Russia uses terror to deliberately cause pain to civilians in order to break people’s resistance,” she says in an interview with EL PAÍS. Since receiving the Nobel Prize, another of her tasks has been to attend events such as Mexico’s Hay Festival in Querétaro, where she acts as a kind of ambassador for Ukraine, spreading the word and trying to stop the world from forgetting the war.

Question. How does it feel to be here while there is a war at home?

Answer. When I landed in Mexico, the first thing I did was check what had happened in Ukraine during the flight. I discovered that Russia had shelled my native city, so I started sending messages to see if I still had a home to return to, if my family is still alive [they are]. War is a lottery and you never know which residential building or family will be die because of Russian rockets. When Ukrainians are abroad, we feel guilty because we can’t share the danger that the people we love are going through.

Q. You live in Kyiv. What is daily life like in the city?

A. It’s hard to express. I still can’t find the right words to describe what it means to live in a war. If you go to Kyiv, you’ll see restaurants and theaters open, people smiling. Normal life is going on, but it’s not just normal life, it’s an act of resistance by people in an abnormal situation, trying to adapt, enjoy, be happy. But there is no totally safe place to hide from Russian rockets. A family from Kyiv left the city when the full-scale invasion began in 2022. They had a one-year-old daughter, Lisa, and they were afraid something might happen to her. But Russia bombed the city they fled to, Vinnytsia, and Lisa died.

Q. Your organization has documented more than 78,000 war crimes. How is all this information processed?

A. This war can turn people into just numbers because the scale of the crimes is so large that it is impossible to recognize all the stories. We document each individual story so that we can put a name to it, because people are not numbers, and so that, sooner or later, they will have justice.

Q. Is there a story that has touched you most personally?

A. I have been recording war crimes for 10 years, but I don’t document stories about children — it’s my red line. A colleague documented this story and told it to me. When Russian troops were trying to take Mariupol, they wouldn’t let the Red Cross evacuate civilians, so many people had to hide in basements. They piled up snow for water, lit fires for cooking. When they ran out of supplies, they were forced to leave their shelters. A mother and her 10-year-old son went outside and found themselves in the middle of a Russian bombing raid. They took shelter in a friend’s apartment. They couldn’t call for medical help because Russia had deliberately destroyed all the infrastructure. They lay down on the couch together, hugging each other. They stayed like that for several hours. The 10-year-old boy told my colleague that he saw his mother freeze to death before his eyes.

Q. Do you ever feel afraid of becoming numb, of not feeling anything after seeing so much horror?

A. I still feel pain. I would like to have more distance, but it is impossible because we are human beings first and foremost, not lawyers, and you can’t be indifferent to the pain of another human being. I’m afraid that the world will get used to the war in Ukraine like it got used to the war in Syria. Syrian President Bashar al-Assad and Russian President Vladimir Putin have bombed civilian cities without any punishment. Ukrainians are not fighting only for ourselves. Russia is an empire, and an empire has a center, but it has no limits. If we are not able to stop Putin, he will attack the next country.

Q. Do you think Ukraine could lose support because the world has become accustomed to war and tired of seeing it on the news?

A. In these two years I have come to understand that many countries, even if they are geographically far away, have values very close to ours. I know from my own experience that when you cannot rely on the law as a legal instrument, you can still rely on people. That is why I know that many people in other countries are not indifferent to what is happening to us.

Q. You have been covering the war since 2014, more intensively since 2022. Aren’t you tired? Do you ever think about quitting your job?

A. I have documented hundreds of stories of people who have survived the Russians. Men and women of different professions, ages, religions, social positions. They have told me how they have been beaten, raped, how their fingers have been cut off, drilled into and their nails torn out, how they have been tortured with electric shocks. Some of these people have never asked for help from state bodies or international organizations because they do not believe that the perpetrators will be punished, but when I asked them why they came to me, I understood that they still have hope that justice is possible, even if it comes late. That is why I cannot allow myself to give up, because when you have this huge amount of stories you feel a great responsibility.

Q. But, not as a professional, as a human being forced to see horrible things every day, do you ever think ‘I can’t do this anymore’?

A. We are people, not robots, and especially since the large-scale invasion our mood is constantly up and down. I have a writer friend who says that when we are down, we are not defeated, we are in an emotional trench. We just need to restore our energy.

Q. As a war crimes lawyer, you have repeatedly said that Russia is committing genocide in Ukraine. Do you think there is grounds for saying that Israel is committing genocide in Palestine?

A. I think it is a huge problem. We can mention the situation in Gaza, in Iran, in Nicaragua and in other countries that suffer from war or authoritarian regimes. It is a visible sign that our international justice and security system is broken, it cannot protect people. It is key for us to join forces and reform international laws because, according to history, when international systems collapsed — I am referring to the League of Nations — the World War started.

Q. I want to ask you about international law later, but I would like to know your opinion, as a human rights expert and Nobel Peace Prize winner. South Africa has accused Israel of genocide before the U.N. International Court of Justice. Do you think there are grounds to support this accusation?

A. We will see what the International Court of Justice will say. They have opened two cases, one against the Israeli authorities and one against Hamas, as far as I know, for war crimes. We will see what charges the prosecutor will bring against them.

Q. And in your personal opinion?

A. As a lawyer, I know that you have to be on the ground and work with the testimonies, with the cases, with the material. What I want to say is that it is a great tragedy since it started, and we as the Ukrainian people who are under the Russian attack to destroy our nation, our language, our culture, understand very well the suffering of other peoples in the rest of the world.

Q. Back to Ukraine: what is the best possible scenario for ending the war at this point? From a pragmatic, not an idealistic point of view.

A. The best possible scenario is that Russia stops the war and withdraws its troops from Ukrainian territory, but that is not going to happen because the international system is broken and Russia is trying to convince the world that it is a military power with nuclear weapons. It can break international laws, dictate its own laws and even forcibly change internationally recognized borders, and no one stops it. I can go back to your question about genocide because, as a lawyer, I know that genocide is the crime of crimes, and it is very difficult to prove, but war crimes, crimes against humanity, are no less serious. All crimes must be punished regardless of their status.

Q. You mentioned the weakness of the international justice system. Putin recently defied it with a trip to Mongolia, a signatory to the Rome Statute of the International Criminal Court, which issued an arrest warrant against the Russian president for war crimes in Ukraine. What are the real chances of bringing Putin to justice, if there has already been an opportunity and it has not been taken?

A. Nobody expected Mongolia to arrest Putin because it is totally dependent on Russian energy, but at least Mongolia could have tried to prevent Putin from coming to their country and making their president [Ukhnaa Khurelsukh] violate international laws. Unfortunately, this is not the first time this has happened with a leader. We need to implement negative consequences for countries that violate their obligation under the Rome Statute and I hope that will happen in the next few months. I also know that Mexico invited Putin to the presidential inauguration [of Claudia Sheinbaum] and I hope that the country will do its duty and, despite the invitation, the prosecutor will arrest Putin if he comes. I also know that the president of Mexico sent the invitation to all the leaders because she wants a neutral position, and I respect that each nation defines its foreign policy, but Mexico cannot be neutral with human suffering. It is not neutrality, it is indifference.

Q. In addition to Russian war crimes, does your organization also monitor Ukrainian troops? For example, the soldiers that have invaded the Russian territory of Kursk.

A. We document all crimes because we are human rights lawyers and we protect human dignity. In our database we also have crimes committed by Ukrainian forces, but having recorded 78,000 violations, I can assure you that the vast majority were committed by Russia, which has also committed war crimes in Chechnya, Moldova, Georgia, Mali, Libya and Syria among other countries, and has never been punished.

Q. What do you think of Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskiy? During the war, he outlawed parties, among other questionable decisions, and his leadership has not been free of controversy.

A. President Zelenskiy still has enormous support from the population, which is natural because during wars countries unite. If the war continues for years, this unity can change. Ukraine is a democracy, with some problems, because we only got the chance to build democratic institutions 10 years ago.

Q. Are you worried about a possible Donald Trump victory in the U.S. elections, as he has threatened to cut aid to Ukraine?

A. It is the right of the American people to decide, but what I know for sure is that whether we have their support or not, we will continue to fight. The world does not understand that it is not a choice. Putin openly says that there is no Ukrainian culture. For 10 years I have seen how these words have been converted into a horrible practice. Russian troops deliberately exterminate working people like lawyers, journalists, musicians, writers, teachers. They ban our language and our culture, they forcibly take Ukrainian children from Ukraine for re-education. We have no other choice, if we stop fighting, there will be nothing left of us, no matter how the rest of the world understands it.

Q. But if the U.S. stops sending weapons and money there is a strong possibility that they will not be able to resist.

A. It is not just a Ukrainian problem. Let me remind you that Russia is fighting not only against Ukraine, but against democratic systems. Released prisoners who have passed through Russian jails describe their jailers’ vision of the future as first a conquest of Ukraine and then of other countries. And they are forcibly recruiting Ukrainians from the occupied territories into the Russian army. Whether European countries, especially those of the European Union, have the courage to admit it or not, they are safe only because Ukrainians keep fighting.

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