Patric Gagne, psychologist: ‘Antisocial personality traits are mistaken for strength, and people are drawn to leaders they perceive as strong’

“I’m not bad, I’m just drawn that way.” Former therapist Patric Gagne, 49, paraphrases the iconic Jessica Rabbit from Who Framed Roger Rabbit? as she reflects on her own criminal activities, such as stealing glasses from Ringo Starr, breaking into homes, and taking other people’s cars for late-night escapades. This UCLA student and doctor of clinical psychology admits that she doesn’t have the same emotional response as others: she struggles with empathy, and finds it difficult to tell the truth. If feelings were colors, Gagne says she would only experience the basic ones, like sadness or joy, but not the more complex emotions like remorse, guilt, jealousy, or love in its conventional form — even though she is married to the love of her life and has two children.

Through her memoir Sociopath, Gagne seeks to foster empathy for those struggling with psychopathic and antisocial disorders, though she notes that the term “sociopath” is outdated and often confused with antisocial personality disorder. In the U.S., it’s typically linked to serial killers. According to writer and journalist Álex Grijelmo, the term “sociopath” conveys the idea of someone “maladjusted.” But as some psychologists argue, labels merely point in a direction; the most important thing is to understand the person as a whole. The interview, conducted via videoconference on January 20, took place just after a president, with characteristics reminiscent of those described in Gagne’s book, returned to the Oval Office.

Question. How do you define “sociopath”?

Answer. Sociopathy, psychopathy, and antisocial personality disorder (ASPD) are related but distinct. The term sociopath, no longer in clinical use, now fits under psychopathy, which is divided into primary (biologically-driven, lacking social emotions like guilt and empathy) and secondary (environmentally-driven, and capable of learning social emotions). Sociopathy aligns with secondary psychopathy. ASPD is a broader diagnosis that can encompass both sociopathy and psychopathy, though not all individuals with ASPD are sociopaths or psychopaths.

Q. It’s so complex that diagnostics might vary depending on the therapist.

A. The challenge lies in the label. Words like “psychopath” and “sociopath” are highly stigmatizing. One therapist suggested reclassifying sociopathy as “low affect disorder” to reduce stigma and better address the behaviors. A common misconception is that sociopaths and psychopaths can’t feel, but we do experience basic emotions like happiness and fear. The challenge lies in social emotions like love, empathy, and compassion, which are learned, not inherent.

Q. What did your PhD studies teach you about the connection between sociopathy and anxiety?

A. Primary psychopaths can’t experience social emotions or anxiety, while secondary psychopaths or sociopaths do feel anxiety. Treating anxiety can help sociopaths learn social emotions. In my case, anxiety steamed from the fear of being outcast due to my lack of emotion. As a child, I masked my true self to fit in, but once I accepted that I didn’t need to be like others, the anxiety faded. While I still feel apathy, I no longer force emotions, and being around empathetic, accepting people is important. As a therapist, I learned that understanding others, even just intellectually, is key. Humanity is diverse, and mutual understanding benefits everyone, regardless of emotional capacity.

Q. As if having full access to emotions magically solved everything…

A. Look, from my perspective it doesn’t sound great [laughs].

Q. Thus, treating anxiety to address sociopathy can offer hope?

A. Absolutely, I wrote my book to show that there’s light at the end of the tunnel. Sociopathy exists on a spectrum, with most cases being mild to moderate. Focusing only on the extremes ignores these milder forms, which could escalate into more severe cases. It’s like only acknowledging stage 4 cancer while ignoring stages 1, 2, and 3 — something similar happens with psychopathy.

Q. Struggling with feeling emotions does not mean you lack of moral code, as evidenced by your decision “not to hurt anyone.”

A. Correct. I am often asked what’s to stop me from murdering people without guilt or remorse, and my answer is: I do hurt people all I want, it’s just that that amount is 0. It seems insane to me that people believe guilt and shame are needed to prevent harm or crime, implying humans would always want to do harm without these emotions. It’s a self-damning argument.

Q. Do you see hypocrisy in society, where individuals without diagnoses don’t need to justify their bad acts to others?

A. People with psychopathic and antisocial personality disorders are criticized for lacking empathy, yet most neurotypical people withhold empathy from them. Empathy is learned, often through caregiver modeling, and a child struggling with empathy typically doesn’t receive much either. It’s hypocritical to expect psychopaths to show empathy when it’s not extended to them.

Q. You say it feels freeing to be accepted, even though accepting those who don’t follow social norms is rare.

A. Historically, those who are different aren’t easily accepted. My emotional struggle doesn’t mean my feelings don’t matter. Psychopathy, sociopathy, and ASPD are often labeled as disorders of aggression, but this should focus on behavior, not emotion. I challenge the idea that children without social emotions like guilt are “bad.” They should be taught to experience these emotions in a way that works for them, which could prevent destructive coping mechanisms.

Q. Loneliness was your greatest struggle. Despite difficulty making friends, you still managed to do so. How did you achieve that?

A. Once I embraced my differences and acted authentically, I found people who accepted me as I was. This is true for anyone: self-acceptance leads to finding others who accept you.

Q. What does the growing support for leaders with sociopathic traits say about our societies?

A. Antisocial personality traits are often mistaken for strength, and people are drawn to leaders they perceive as strong, whether or not that’s valid. This is why many are attracted to individuals who are bold in their actions and language.

Q. Leaders in big tech, like Zuckerberg or Musk, seem to act without shame or remorse as well as they gain more power and wealth. Does power contribute to someone becoming a sociopath or losing empathy?

A. Elon Musk has openly discussed his autism diagnosis, which I applaud, and I wouldn’t contradict it with a sociopathy assessment. However, many of the people you mention seem to fit the criteria of narcissism more than sociopathy. Both antisocial or narcissistic personality types thrive in professions that are hindered by emotion. Politics is another type of entertainment where you’re a mouthpiece for what you believe the people want to hear. In those situations, having limited access to emotion serves quite well, as unfortunate as that is.

Q. Do social networks promote sociopathic behaviors in societies and individuals?

A. I wouldn’t say social media is making people more sociopathic, but behind a screen, people are bolder, sometimes positively, sometimes negatively. This isn’t necessarily about sociopathy, but about human nature: without accountability, people tend to push boundaries.

Q. So, as humans, not just sociopaths, we need limits to guide our behavior.

A. We are taught as children to respect and be kind to one another, but with so much anger and rage in the world, some seek unhealthy outlets.

Q. What would you say to people not diagnosed as sociopaths about the importance of developing empathy?

A. As someone who struggles with empathy, I believe it’s important to accept differences. While I may not always understand others’ emotions, I recognize that everyone experiences emotions differently. We need to work on accepting these differences. In discussions about politics or world issues, emotions often get heated, and I encourage more acceptance and less anger. We don’t have to agree, but we shouldn’t let anger drive us. We should respect differences and understand that feeling differently doesn’t mean feeling wrong.

Q. How do you see yourself now?

A. I once thought I was bad due to the one-dimensional view of sociopathy, but I later realized I was just different. With self-understanding, my perspective and behavior shifted. A sociopath can lead a functional life, challenging misconceptions. Limited access to emotion isn’t immoral — it’s about actions, not feelings.

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