Jane Goodall: ‘The worse it gets, the harder I fight’

In the lush botanical gardens of Málaga, Spain, the renowned primatologist and ethologist Jane Goodall, 91, exuded enthusiasm for the conservation of global biodiversity. In her conversation with EL PAÍS, her drive was apparent, although her quiet voice was sometimes drowned out by the chirping of birds.

With the perspective that comes from having lived through everything — including World War II — and spending 300 days a year traveling the world giving lectures, Goodall blends politics with scientific advances regarding chimpanzees, with whom we share 98.7% of our DNA.

The night before her interview with this newspaper — in front of a dedicated audience — Goodall passionately recalled how Churchill prevented Hitler from conquering the United Kingdom. A United Nations Messenger of Peace since 2002, she also highlighted the ongoing global struggles, while spreading her message of hope.

Goodall is especially interested in reaching out to young people: she always strives to surround herself with them.

Question. It’s impressive to see how you maintain your frenetic work pace.

Answer. It’s just round and round and round the world all the time! The pace is actually worse now, because I’ve got less time ahead of me. So, I have to do more and more. Last year, I visited 27 countries. Four of them, twice. Now I’ll spend a week at home before going to Taiwan and Japan. When I’m not catching planes or lecturing or having interviews like this, I’m trying to catch up with emails and do Zooms.

Q. About 60 years ago, you demonstrated how chimpanzees used tools to feed themselves. How has knowledge about these animals evolved since then?

A. Because we’re now in our 65th year [of research], we can look back over the generations and say, “oh, this guy, that’s what his grandfather did, or that’s what his grandmother did.” And so, [knowledge] is probably innate. We know that, when a chimpanzee was a child, such and such happened, which is why we see this behavior. So, the long-term research is helping a lot. And then, there are tools like DNA analysis, so you know who the father is in some areas. There are camera traps, which we use in Senegal. And satellite images, to map out the range of the chimps.

Q. Before your discoveries, it was common to say that you had to be objective — and not empathetic — to do good science. Did that belief hinder the understanding of chimpanzees?

A. From my point of view, you can have empathy and you can also be objective at the same time. For me, there’s no conflict. I remember, once, a little chimp: she’d broken her arm. Every time the mother moved, the baby cried. So, the mother tightened her grip, which hurt even more. I was just crying. But, if you read my notes, it’s accurate to the minute. You can have empathy and observe objectively.

Q. Would you say that you eventually convinced those scientists who had looked down on you for being young and empathetic?

A. They didn’t admit it, but in the end, science has changed with regards to animal behavior. People are studying animal personalities, animal emotions and, certainly, animal intelligence. You know, we’re finding intelligence in octopuses, in some insects, in fish. Some scientists still want to do invasive research… and, for them, it’s better to pretend that animals don’t have emotions. They don’t want to admit it, because, if they admitted it, they could be accused of being cruel. And they are cruel.

Q. Do chimpanzees have spiritual behaviors?

A. I don’t know. We’ve seen them throw rocks at the face of a huge waterfall. And then, after throwing the rocks, they may sit down and you can see their eyes follow the water. And you can imagine them wondering, “What is this? It’s always coming, it’s always here, it’s always growing.” And if they had words, they might turn to one of the early animistic religions, when people worshipped the sun, the moon, the stars. Things they couldn’t understand.

Q. Is chimpanzee meat still sold in butcher shops on the African continent?

A. Bushmeat, yes. We’re working on that. We educate the people and also enforce the legislation, because in most countries, chimps are classified as endangered, or even critically endangered. Therefore, it’s illegal to kill them. But you know, the law seldom gets enforced and there’s a lot of bribery and corruption.

Q. Is mining the biggest current threat to preserving chimpanzee territories?

A. In some places, yes. But in many, many places, it’s the destruction of the habitat, the forest. And, in other places, it’s the encroachment of people, who are building and just gradually moving in. In some places, the land is cleared to grow crops. Then, you get conflict, because the chimps have less and less to eat, so they start raiding crops. And then, they may be killed, or they may hurt someone.

Q. Do you maintain dialogue with companies or governments?

A. Yes, I talk to a lot of CEOs and try to get them to understand. But there’s always this ethical dilemma between giving people enough resources, with families growing and the human population still growing. Although, it’s expected to drop in the future. And the planet — in some cases — is having its resources taken at a faster rate than they can be replenished. A lot of companies are recognizing that.

Q. Many biologists and psychologists extol the social and mental health benefits of contact with nature. Is there a way to reverse the loss of these benefits among the new, more urban generations?

A. In our Roots & Shoots program, we try to get young people out into nature. If the program is taking place in a city, we try to bring a little bit of nature into the classroom, because it’s a scientific fact that — especially for young children — time in nature is good for their psychological development. And, in Japan and Canada — maybe in other countries, too — doctors can prescribe time in nature.

Q. That’s wonderful.

A. Yes, isn’t it? For mental problems and also physical problems. You get a prescription: “one hour in nature a day.” It’s scary the way young people today are spending so much time on their iPhones, their iPads. Even sitting together on a bus, they’ll text each other rather than talk. In these botanical gardens, you may even see children who are three or four-years-old being pushed in a stroller, but they’re not looking at all these beautiful trees and listening to the birds. And the parents let them [use their devices].

Q. In Spain, after a four-year-long ban, the government is now allowing the killing of wolves. And Romania has asked the EU for permission to kill more bears, as Slovakia already does. How do we deal with these wild species?

A. Same in America, same in Canada. It’s an international movement, sadly. We have to try, even though it’s very difficult. If your children are walking to school — and if they may come across wolves or bears — there’s no assurance. We’re trying to pull together a group of people to discuss this very thing. How can we create this balance? How can we make it safe for people?

My feeling is, if you don’t hurt the animals, they won’t hurt you. When I went to Gombe [in Tanzania], we had leopards and buffaloes. And people said, “well, you should take a gun with you.” One, I wouldn’t know how to use it. And two, if I don’t hurt the animals, they won’t hurt me. People said that was stupid… but I say it wasn’t stupid, because they didn’t hurt me.

Q. The political right tends to support ranchers and hunters, while the left clamors for animal rights. Is it possible to ease the tension in the debate?

A. That’s why we need to bring people together. It’s really difficult and I can’t solve that problem: I just know that we ought to work harder. These hunters and people engaging in trophy hunting, that’s terrible. And most African countries have banned it, but not Tanzania. I write letters and speak up to get them to stop people coming in, but they say, “oh, it brings money for conservation.” That’s not true, the money goes to the outfitter [of the poaching expedition].

One of these royals showed me a room where there were all these heads on the wall. Everything he’d shot. I looked at him and I said: “I see all these heads. I don’t see any mice or squirrels.” I was trying to make him see that it was ridiculous. I don’t think he understood what I was saying.

Q. Is there a key point that NGOs and governments are missing when it comes to convincing people of the importance of the climate emergency?

A. At the end of the 1980s, I was visiting different chimp sites in Africa. I wanted to learn why chimp numbers were dropping. I learned a lot about the bushmeat trade, how poachers would shoot mothers to take their babies for the illegal wildlife trade, but I also learned about the plight of so many of the people living in and around the chimp habitat. [They were burdened by] a lack of a health and education system, the overfarming of the soil, as well as crippling poverty.

When I flew over the tiny Gombe National Park — where we’re still studying chimps — in 1998 or 1999, I was shocked. I knew there was deforestation, but I didn’t expect to see a little island of forest. All around, the hills were bare. And it suddenly struck me that these people were cutting down the trees to make some money to survive.

If we don’t help people find ways of making a living without destroying the environment, we can’t save chimps, forests, or anything else. We started with programs to improve the lives of people in seven villages, including educational scholarships. Our program is now operating in 104 villages through Chimp Range in Tanzania, as well as in six other African countries, including Senegal. And we just lost $5.5 million a year for the next four years, because of Trump and [Elon] Musk cutting USAID.

Q. How can you touch the hearts of climate change deniers?

A. Stories, stories, stories. Stories of what’s happening. My God, the hottest year in the history of a country, the hottest day, it’s so obvious the planet’s heating up. The people on the other side [of the debate] will say, “well, it’s part of a cycle.” And it’s true: throughout history, there have been cycles. There was an Ice Age. But we’re hastening it up. The speed of the emissions, the CO2 in the atmosphere, is accelerating.

Q. What do you think about the struggles being waged by new generations and activists, such as Greta Thunberg?

A. When I was young, we didn’t talk about conservation. But now, you can’t have ears and a working mind and not know what’s going on. Our program with young people — Roots & Shoots — began 1991 with 12 high school students, in Tanzania. They came to visit my home in Dar es-Salam. Now, it’s in 75 countries, growing all the time.

Participants choose three projects: one to help people, one to help animals, one to help the environment. Because it’s all interrelated. A lot of the kids do organic gardens, they do beach cleanups, they build butterfly gardens. They raise money for the homeless, they volunteer in animal shelters. When millions of people do small acts, it leads to big change.

The more depressing things get, the more people give up and do nothing. That’s my job now: I’m going around the world saying: “we have to have hope, because without hope, we give up.” And hope comes through action. So, when you do something like stopping another building in nature, that makes you feel good. The worse it gets, the harder I fight.

Q. Do you feel guilty about the number of flights you take to spread your message, given the carbon dioxide emissions they entail?

A. I wish somebody would give me a magic carpet. At least I never go in private jets! The plane is going to take off anyway and it’s the only way I can spread my message. With our programs, we’ve planted so many millions of trees, which has absorbed a little bit of my carbon footprint.

Q. Last night, when you quoted Churchill, you mentioned other current leaders in need of support. Who did you have in mind?

A. I was thinking of Zelenskiy, although he’s now signed the minerals treaty. I don’t know. I was also thinking of other politicians, not necessarily the top guys.

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